[2], Fierceton shared the information she had with Logan, who in turn took it to a law firm that investigated further. Fine. RG: Rather than it being for the purpose of benefiting the students themselves. Fellow students, their parents and Whitfield faculty also noticed signs which led them to suspect abuse. And please go and leave us a rating or a review it helps people find the show. That was my personal statement. We dont have ads, so we depend on our members 35,000 and counting to help us hold the powerful to account. At school, she began confiding about her situation with a history teacher, telling them about her mother's physical abuse. And is it somewhat of a defense mechanism that people deploy to protect themselves? Then the University of Pennsylvania accused her of lying. She got straight A's, served in student government, managed the field hockey team, played varsity soccer, and volunteered to assist with the local Special Olympics. "We have concluded that there is a basis for serious concern and that further investigation by the Rhodes Committee may be appropriate", she wrote. Not as something that is for the benefit of the MacKenzies, the people who were being brought into the school, but actually for the benefit of the university itself, its image and also for the students. The university's police did not know at first where the building was and the city's paramedics did not know how to get to it. And I suspected that it was about this anonymous email. or in graduate school. And it felt very similar that, well, this cant be real. Fierceton clarified the details in question and Ruderman said she understood better. And theres also literature thats economic literature versus sociology, different fields have different perspectives on what that relationship between foster care and the criminal justice system is and what the causes are. We need to stay on task. Gathering outside Caster, whose renovation they also demanded, they marched toward College Hall, where Winkelstein had taken over as interim provost following Gutmann's departure, and chanted for her ouster as well. So that was what that specific sentence in The New Yorker was referencing is this kind of condensing this group of people and to one sentence. Some people were very much on my side; some people were very much, I think, in that sort of cognitive dissonance of: This cant be true because if it can, then Im in danger. She also alleged that Penn had on many occasions failed to follow its own disciplinary policies in its investigation of her.[16]. And Im like: I dont know what else I could give them that would possibly convince them if their belief is as a 15-year-old, 16-year-old was journaling about my experience of abuse and hiding it in an air vent, and it was actually secretly all a plan to like accuse my mother of abuse and go into foster care so I could have a sad story. RG: so that people have the background there. And because poverty and abuse are so pervasive in society and particularly in a country that has such a minimal social safety net and has so much violence. And that dynamic, I would say, [laughs] probably played a big part in all of this. Enough bruises? Its virtually almost an unknown phenomena or to people who are working in the field, its certainly known, but theres been very little research on it, which partially complicates my Ph.D., because theres so little to draw upon. And theyll openly talk about this. Yeah, so Penn First for the whole FGLI community. And so when you applied for your masters in social worker or sociology? MF: Just a quick circling back, Im actually not sure if it was her who first reached out or if it was General Counsel Wendy White, because I later found out that they had a phone call about 36 hours after the article came out and seemed to talk pretty extensively, and then there were a lot of emails that happened. It didnt have any facts of the case. verbally. She has a bachelor's degree in political science from Penn and was working on a master's in social work. To me, it seems like any reader of the English language would read that in a literary sense , RG: of its self-exploration, self-doubt, trauma. Teachers at Whitfield who had been supportive while she was there dropped out of touch. The university writes: After those who knew Fierceton raised questions about her story, it was investigated not just once, but several times, and not just by Penn faculty and staff, but also the Rhodes Trust. Fierceton told the story that, according to her diary, her mother had told her to tellthat she had tripped while playing with the family dogs and bruised herself on the corner of a nearby table. RG: Talk just a little bit about that case . Ryan Grim: This weeks guest on Deconstructed is Mackenzie Fierceton, who was the subject of a recent story in The New Yorker. [3], By the end of the interview Fierceton was crying. MF: Its hard to say. Because that was one of the ones that really blew my mind. And in the U.S., there is much more pressure to pull kids out of homes, right? Is that just an interpretation or did they say anything that suggested to you that the fact that you had gone to a private school and grown up in an upper-middle-class situation meant that you could never at any point consider yourself low-income? But I also think it has something to do with the way that we understand poverty. [2][h], In January 2020[4] Fierceton had a seizure and collapsed during a class for one of her graduate social work courses. And then very quickly turn to very specific questions about different instances of abuse. And theyll openly talk about this. And if you havent already, please subscribe to the show so you can hear it every week. Not as something that is for the benefit of the MacKenzies, the people who were being brought into the school, but actually for the benefit of the university itself, its image and also for the students. Like what does Penn say when you tell them: Hey, the Penn official who helped me fill this out said that these are the categories that I fit. Instead, I want to talk more about what this says about the system, that something so seemingly irrational could be produced by this system, and actually could be predicted to be produced by this system in some ways. And I was in a kind of unique situation where I applied to grad school at the beginning of my sophomore year of college, because I sub-matriculated. I think youre right. You have a good education and youre clearly smart. The University of Pennsylvania on Tuesday announced it will stop withholding a master's degree from Mackenzie Fierceton, the former student at the center of a recent New Yorker magazine. But part of it is funding decisions. The mother hired a high-powered attorney and engaged in a local campaign to discredit Mackenzie. And where are you at school? The recurring sexual abuse by Lovelace had made Fierceton even more anxious over the summer after he gave her mother a gun as a gift (Morrison had called the police after Lovelace showed Fierceton pictures of the gun. And eventually they filed a big wrongful death lawsuit in August 2020. Two other women he was involved with had also reported him to law enforcement). It seemed like there was a lack of internal emergency protocols within our grad school, the School of Social Policy & Practice. And its mentioned briefly. This made Fierceton feel as if she were being watched for anything she did that could be used against the state's case by her mother. They took photographs of Caster's staircases and elevators, and interviewed witnesses and some of the Penn paramedics who had responded. So you applied for your masters in social work and there was a question of whether to check the, what Ive learned is called the FGLI box: first-generation, low-income. I mean, part of it is honestly like its looking at cause we just wanted to be as thorough as possible of when [laughs] I was crying, and then I was crying and taking breaths. And, in this case, almost everyone who was involved in the university administration are upper middle class or very wealthy, highly academically educated white women. I think they have said, well, theres different definitions and the dean who is the dean of the grad school said: Well, thats not our definition. "You can't couch-surf in a pandemic", Norton said. And that feels like one of them where it feels like the system is willfully misunderstanding reality in order to bend it in their direction. And she ended up responding right away, and asked to get on a phone call. So one of the questions that you mentioned that they asked was about your essay , which, correct me if Im wrong, but I think it begins saying something along the lines of: Youre in the hospital, you looked in the mirror, and you couldnt recognize yourself, you couldnt recognize your features. Mackenzie Fierceton: Yeah. As youve had time to sort through this, what do you think was driving Penn to go through this process, which they had to know, at some level, would cost them? Cause I had assumed it was her. Fierceton believes it was likely sent by Morrison or one of her close relatives. The Inquirer story came out in November 2020. [2], Shortly after the Rhodes investigation began, Rafaelle was informed that Penn was proposing to revoke Fierceton's bachelors on the grounds of her apparent self-misrepresentation. And what area of it are you going to explore with your Ph.D.? [1]:86, Morrison prospered in her medical career, and she provided generously for her daughter, allowing her to ride horses, go on river rafting trips and attend exclusive private schools, such as Whitfield, in nearby Creve Coeur, where annual tuition was almost $30,000. And that was the end of it, right? We dont believe you. Now Im sobbing, Im hyperventilating, and the staff member interrupted and said: Can we have an estimate of how much time is left? Cops have accused the MTV star of stalking as well as violation of an order of protection. RG: And because you were not just low-income, actually no income, other than the jobs that you were working nobody has complained about the low-income one, right? [5] She posted it before Fierceton's release from the hospital, and once free began calling Fierceton's friends and former teachers, telling them that Fierceton was having issues and had made it appear Morrison had beaten her. You know, I believe the first people who said that was the Rhodes Trust. She entered foster care only at the age of 17, after making a complaint of abuse against Dr.. Or is this something thats been overlooked? "Fuck thatI don't have [a family]" she said later. And I also think we have this racist and classist notion of who can be an abuser or who can cause harm. I had no idea what she already knew. And I think its true. Whereas white parents, a lot of times, it is much harder the bar is much higher to remove them from their homes because their whiteness or possibly class privilege or whatever identities that they have that might not fit a social worker or judges or whoevers involved perception of whose kids should be in the foster system. How many people kind of fit that category that you interacted with, and how many kind of fit closer to your category, not just in your own interactions, but also in your research? And then the focus shifted to the second box. In a 25-minute conversation, she went into detail with Fierceton about her past and what she planned to do with her scholarship. Like you said, I was called into a meeting. MF: Yes, definitely. I wrote a poem about the actual what the message was, which is so cheesy and Im cringing at my 17-year-old self [laughs], but it was about the healing power of gratitude. She retained two lawyers to represent her pro bono; they talked to Morrison themselves, who told them she still loved her daughter and wanted her to come home. [2], Morrison, no longer employed by St. Luke's, then began the process of trying to restore her reputation by having all references to it removed from the public record. Penn's Office of Student Conduct recommended withholding her master's degree until she paid a fine; both conditions were dropped but a notation about the investigative finding remains in her transcript. I think this is a conversation not necessarily for people who are still in question about what happened here. Or is that it separates two into one? RG: Mhmm. It finds the definition the university's office uses, without that language, as being more determinative; Penn First, the FGLI student organization Fierceton had been involved with, also used that definition on its website for most of the time she was an undergraduate. And I was having flashbacks to cross-examinations and depositions Id given about this which later made sense, because we found out that Wendy White had spoken with one of Carries defense lawyers. Who will spend some significant amount of time in poverty. Which as Im sure youve learned since is a complete and fundamental misunderstanding of poverty . It was: Shes a spoiled little brat. "[20][m] A syndicated morning radio show named Fierceton its "donkey of the day". ")[3], The OSC report also concluded that nothing in her academic record warranted the revocation of either degree. Mackenzie Fierceton (born Mackenzie Terrell on August 9, 1997; later Mackenzie Morrison,[1]:6364,86) is an American activist and graduate student currently studying at Oxford University. Theres no cell phone reception in the basement. [2] They learned that SP2 had no real protocol for an emergency situation in the building. This can happen to someone in my community. Thats not in question. box, it's like you have to fit yourself in, saying: Are you the first in your family to attend? So Rachel had it and Penn disputed it. RG: Or whatever our kind of contemporary version of it is. You didnt grow up in crumbling projects your entire life. And you experienced that yourself, right? Fierceton said that when she had applied to SP2 as a sophomore she had cleared it with the school's associate director of admissions, who told her that a student's biological parents were not relevant to that definition, and said the same thing in 2020 (Penn's OSC interviewed the associate director and SP2's associate director for financial aid whom Fierceton said she had a similar conversation with; neither remembered speaking with Fierceton about the issue)[1]:111112). And that dynamic, I would say, [laughs] probably played a big part in all of this. Penn filed a 130-page response two weeks later, denying all her allegations of wrongdoing and saying that the university officials and co-defendants who had investigated the case were unaware of the Driver lawsuit when they did. RG: She, about 10 years ago, she wrote a comment I think on a Gawker post or something like that that we ended up then re-publishing as an essay at The Huffington Post about, and it was about her life in poverty, and it went viral, millions of people read it, extremely well-written piece. And because poverty and abuse are so pervasive in society and particularly in a country that has such a minimal social safety net and has so much violence. She definitely asked some questions about it. Mackenzie is the soap's first transgender character, added to the series after Stone wrote to executive producer Jason Herbison to pitch the character. I want to read from The New Yorker article again, it says: The Web site of Penn First Plus, a university program founded in 2018 to support F.G.L.I. And I was the one who uncovered my classmates death. And again, people, including Penn administrators, have the perception of I think the stereotype and my friend Anea Moore, whos a Rhodes Scholar and graduate of Penn who founded Penn first or co-founded it had a really great quote in The New Yorker about we arent all, quote-unquote something along the lines of like impoverished, inner city kids who go to crumbling public schools as the wider media portrays us to be. At the end of the march they were addressed by Fierceton and other FGLI students. RG: as a kid. "[2], That feeling was not mutual, Fierceton came to suspect. [2], Fierceton remained in the hospital, where DSS ordered her placed in protective custody. How do I do that in a succinct way when theres a very short word count and youre trying to fit everyones experience in?And so I didnt really think about: Oh, I need to say: This foster sibling who was in the foster care system. To me, it seems like any reader of the English language would read that in a literary sense , of its self-exploration, self-doubt, trauma. Thats the reality of it, but we dont want to think of it that way. And I decided to do it cause I felt like I had nothing to lose and I ended up making gratitude lists every day for years and it really was a very healing experience for me. Medical records, records from child welfare services, corroborating letters from detectives and lawyers and elementary, middle, and high school teachers, childhood friends, professors basically everyone who had known me. And I dont remember exactly what their statement was, but they disputed it. Its virtually almost an unknown phenomena or to people who are working in the field, its certainly known, but theres been very little research on it, which partially complicates my Ph.D., because theres so little to draw upon. Also, there was a delay in getting the Penn Police there because they didnt know where the building was. But they just assumed theres no way that it could have happened. Mackenzie Fierceton, C'20, has been awarded a 2021 Rhodes Scholarship for graduate study at the University of Oxford. So that was, I think later on that specific line came into question. Then the Philly paramedics couldnt figure out how to get to the building and then they couldnt get me out. A week later, Brandt interviewed Morrison again at the police station; this time she said that her daughter had injured herself, saying "I guess she has more problems than I thought." So the Rhodes Trust ended up after their quote-investigation, and I submitted all the evidence, they ended up still recommending that my scholarship be rescinded, uh, but I had another opportunity to respond to their report, which I absolutely wanted to do. So one question was: Are you from a low-income family? [9] In a news release, Penn's then-president Amy Gutmann, a daughter of Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany who had herself been the first in her family to attend college,[11] spoke admiringly of Fierceton as "a first-generation low-income student and a former foster youth. "Was the problem that a child who was placed into foster care and had no contact with her biological mother wasn't actually a first-generation college student? [f] Fierceton felt no ambivalence about her answer. There were definitely, Im sure. "[25], "I cannot avoid the sense that Mackenzie is being faulted for not having suffered enough", Norton told The New Yorker. Like some students do have a story, more like me where they had some kind of separation from their family; other students their parents were doctors or lawyers or Ph.D. students in other countries, but then they came here and their degrees no longer, essentially, counted or people who are just first-generation and not necessarily low-income or people who are low-income, but not first-generation. So the students had to form a human chain from the first floor down to the basement where all our classes are to relay instructions from the paramedics, the Philadelphia paramedics, to the professor who was, to my understanding, performing CPR. Photograph by Robbie Lawrence for The New Yorker Mackenzie Fierceton grew up in a middle-class suburb of St. Louis. Yeah. MF: Yeah. In the transcript, I wrote it was really just focused on: What happened the night you went into foster care? At first she explained Fierceton's injuries as either having been caused by an intruder or somehow self-inflicted, then said her daughter had fallen downstairs while she was trying to help her get some chewing gum out of her hair. And the chain of events that happened leading into foster care? Period." She also called herself a first-generation low-income student. [2] Katie Couric had Fierceton as a guest on her podcast a week later. But it was definitely something I saw happening sort of this funneling of kids from the child welfare to criminal justice system. Although she had not attended an orientation session for first-generation/low-income (FGLI) students she had been invited to, on campus she began attending meetings and gatherings of Penn First, an FGLI student group founded the preceding year to pressure Penn to better accommodate their needs, such as not closing dormitories and cafeterias over breaks since many FGLI students could not, for various reasons, return home during those periods. ", However, in its report, Penn notes that Fierceton had, in an essay (which it allows may not have actually been submitted) for her application for a travel, The Rhodes report acknowledged her documentation of an email she wrote to a reporter at the, Penn's investigation noted that even if Fierceton had been referring to the Chesterfield police rather than the. So one question was: Are you from a low-income family? And I think said something along the lines of there were things missing and it was distorted. But in this application they had two questions which are to determine financial aid. "[1]:119, Dismissal of mother's charges and expurgation of records, Role in wrongful death suit against university, In its response to Fierceton's suit, Penn quotes Fierceton as telling police as soon as they entered her hospital room after her later injury about her diary and that it would tell them everything they would need to know. [4] After gathering all the evidence, they approached Driver's widow, Roxanne Logan, who had not been informed of the accessibility issues and delays involved in her husband's death; in fact she had been given the impression he had been evacuated from the building almost as soon as he began experiencing symptoms. RG: Right. Beth Winkelstein, at the time Penn's deputy provost, signed off on her application for the school, writing that "Mackenzie understands what it is like to be an at-risk youth, and she is determined to re-make the systems that block rather than facilitate success. [i] Ruderman corroborated that later to The New Yorker, saying she was paraphrasing Fierceton's self-identification as FGLI. I tried to help as much as I could. But it was definitely something I saw happening sort of this funneling of kids from the child welfare to criminal justice system. Fierceton was mentioned in the complaint as having experienced similar issues following her seizure; she was deposed in the suit in March 2021, the month before the university's investigation led her to withdraw from the Rhodes Scholarship. There were so many there are, I guess I should say so many moving pieces. So thats the background of him. Mackenzie is currently suing the university. Margulis later told The New Yorker that he had been telling the prosecutor repeatedly that Fierceton "had no credibility and made all of this up", the same theme as Morrison's many arguments in person and over the phone to other Whitfield parents. If youd like to support our work, go to theintercept.com/give your donation, no matter what the amount, makes a real difference. [23] In mid-April, Penn released Fierceton's master's degree. Yeah. Just a quick circling back, Im actually not sure if it was her who first reached out or if it was General Counsel Wendy White, because I later found out that they had a phone call about 36 hours after the article came out and seemed to talk pretty extensively, and then there were a lot of emails that happened. Attached were copies of the Missouri court orders expunging Morrison's arrest and removing her name from the DSS registry. It didnt, though, to the University of Pennsylvania. And I ended up reading the comments, and the comments were just horrendous. I didnt even really think about it when I checked it, because I felt like I had a lot of information that backed it up. [3] "Mackenzie may have centered certain aspects of her background to the exclusion of othersfor reasons we are certain she feels are validin a way that creates a misimpression," the report said. And I ended up reading the comments, and the comments were just horrendous. Right. And if you read it aloud, its almost exactly the length of the phone call. [2], During her high school years, Fierceton has alleged that her mother subjected her to emotional and physical abuse, the latter enough on more than one occasion to require hospitalization. And thats again, like not because there isnt abuse or neglect going on in families that looked like mine, or biological families that looked like mine. 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